Transcript
Speaker: Welcome to Arranging Tangerines, conversations with contemporary artists, curators, and thinkers about the intersection of art, technology, and commerce. Your hosts for this episode are me, Joseph Wilcox, and Elisa Gutierrez-Erikson.
Speaker: Our guest this week is Andrea Goudinho. Andrea is an independent Mexican director, animator, and photographer. Her work is based on the experimentation of mixed animation techniques in documentary.
Speaker: She was part of the 14th Berlinale Talents Guadalajara and recently finished a master's degree in animation at the Estonian Academy of Arts, supported by the scholarship Funke Conosit Creators of the Future.
Speaker: Welcome, Andrea. Hello, Joseph and a Elisa. Thank you so much for having Yeah, we're so happy to have you today. Thank you for being here. It's great to meet you on the internet.
Speaker: I'm looking forward to meeting you at the end of July as well. Yeah, I'm excited, like really, really excited. Also about the space and it's like a huge thing for me and animation yeah in that sense. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah. The show looks fantastic. For listeners, Andrea has a video um piece that we'll talk about in this episode that is a part of the exhibition Pulsar at MUCA campus in Mexico City as part of the Projected Ecologies series of films, which is 16 international artists with films, um which the last episode we had was about one of those artists and the next few will also be. So this is another one of those.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah it's been it's been really amazing to like start meeting all the artists in this process and you know, some of them we knew already, but I feel like this is kind of like creating a whole new community and space. So it's it's super exciting to also get to talk to you and to learn more about your process, which I have like a few questions and I'm sure Joe does too. But maybe we will start by the by the official first question that we've been asking that maybe Joe wants to do.
Speaker: ah so Yeah, do you just want, do you want to tell us a little bit about the work um that's in the show? Oh, cool. Yeah. then the The work is called Anima Natura, and it's a like mixing media video art. It's kind of hard to explain, like, really how specific it is, because it it is also like a research project.
Speaker: And it is like a, so in that sense, it's like a, for me, when I was doing it, it was like ah this, ah like the need to go beyond like a short film and also like the need to don't, that this don't finish just like ah when you finish like a a video.
Speaker: it It was like, i feel that where I was learning and discovering because I went to Estonia and I'm from Mexico, it was like but so much bigger than like something that could fix in five minutes or six minutes or even like in a writing thesis Right? Because sometimes, but I discovered because of winter that this was a ah like a really meaningful part, of the research, because it was like something that as human was making me like a really like a different, I don't know how to explain it. So Animanatura is an anime X-it-Media short film, like around six minutes.
Speaker: And it's about and a landscape that, landscapes that disappear. And it's about the notebook and also how a notebook contain these like ah disappearing landscapes.
Speaker: So in that sense, and it's also like a kind of poetry film because I wrote something and I used my voice off as part it.
Speaker: So it's like a really mixed thing. So it was really kind of hard to pull it like in a... to like to name it as a short film or it is an installation or it is ah research or what is it. So that's why I'm really happy that it now it's like part of Projected Ecologies because it's like, oh, you know, these spaces exist.
Speaker: And I was like, yeah, it was meant to be. like like Also to be part of not just like a screening in a festival. It was like something And i i love I love the way that you did this space, you create the space so they can interact ah with other films. So I don't know, i'm I'm just really curious about how they interact each other and how you ah as a viewer, you can experience that. So I believe that when you select this project as part of the
Speaker: ah selection, I was like, yes, it it it was something for me, you know, because I was a bit, i don't know, not not lost, but like trying, it's anima, I believe that is finding its what it way, like the way.
Speaker: So it's going, I think, okay. I think that's amazing. I feel like all the jurors were very, very excited about your film when we were like watching hundreds and hundreds of submissions that we had.
Speaker: um And it was beautiful to see like so many concepts that i that we brought to the exhibition and Pulsar manifest in such a subtle yet perfect way in your work. um And this idea of like life surrounding us, even when we think we are surrounded by inert things, right?
Speaker: um And I think that the fact that your work appeals to an embodied knowledge ah that comes perhaps through witnessing assured aliveness with other existences, it's for me what made it just like...
Speaker: ah a perfect thing and and just kind of like a beautiful thing to watch and to, and to feel. um also cause it's, it's, I mean, obviously it's very visual and there's like all this sound, but there's, you accomplish so much, uh, in, in regards to the senses. And I feel like everything in the body is engaging when you're watching that film.
Speaker: So, uh, so yeah, that's, that's what I think about it. But I wanted to ask... there Is there a question? Is there a question in there? A question is coming. So you were talking just now about um about writing and like the relationship to poetry. But I'm wondering, like in the process, if this was something that came back and forth from words to images, if like one was feeding the other, or that it started more as a script and then it went to the visuals.
Speaker: Can you talk a little bit more about that process, maybe? Yeah, I mean, the the the poetry that now I call it like that, but for me was more like a confession.
Speaker: It was until the very end. And it was when it was like, i was like, the feeling was this, like I feel also that I... like embodied all these landscapes that for me was like super different from Mexico.
Speaker: Also my first time during winter for two years. And for me, winter was like my big teacher, like as a human, you know, darkness was my teacher. And I think like this short film is quite dark in a way.
Speaker: And I wait like until the very, very, very end to write this confession who was more, that was more like a, like automatic writing, like not really.
Speaker: And it was funny because when I was like in the landscape, it it was like in my mind, like a inner voice, like, you know, like the this the the melody of the voice was like that.
Speaker: And ah it was funny because I was like a bit ashamed or like shy to put my voice on it because I didn't want to feel like a really, the human voice over it.
Speaker: the image, you like the ego again. right But for me, it was the like the at the end, it was like the most ah like the honest way to do it because it was like, okay, I'm opening and I'm like like throwing in a voice. like ah Also because I did the recording like alone in the studio.
Speaker: And I was feeling like a bit crazy because I was like trying to direct myself and trying to be like the, you know, like the technician who was like pressing record. And I was like, okay, I'm i locked in the school studio.
Speaker: ah And I start to really like close my eyes and like, just like trying to express it. I don't know how, you know, but ah because I'm not an actress or,
Speaker: But it was just like, for me at the end, Anima Natura ended the things that it light unfold, it's really about like the human and contemplation, but also like the like this relation and what we keep as a memory.
Speaker: Because for me also, I was about my master's finish like in June, and I lived five days after it. So this landscape, ah I was like, I'm really saying goodbye to this.
Speaker: So it was like, that's why I feel like the voice was like to that. And also the process was ah really like, a yeah, like this, like i'm um I'm saying goodbye of this, but also it's like a...
Speaker: human, right? Like, think to say goodbye. But sometimes because of fire or sometimes because where I'm from, Uruapan, the landscape, the forest was like on fire while I was there.
Speaker: So for me, I was like, oh I was i like, everything is disappearing somehow. And ah that's why it was for me like really... In Estonia, I felt that I was like playing, you know, that I was really free to play, to go alone and like document these ah landscapes and also like in a happy, nostalgic and really grateful for being I was really grateful for being there, being there but in Mexico something else was happening. It was like landscapes were disappearing because of humans and fire. and So it was like... i was like ah
Speaker: That's something that I'm really sure is like, while doing this, I really developed like a broader connection, like a bigger connection with the unseen or like, so for me, it was like, oh, it's it's it's happening, you know, like not...
Speaker: And it's not about, at the end, it was not about a film. It was more about what was a inside me yeah constantly changing and constantly like opening my sensitivity.
Speaker: So that's why for me it was hard to put together five or six minutes because it was like, how can I explain all of this? Or like do I really need a film?
Speaker: But yes, because I need to get a degree, so I really need a film. But that's why now it's like, a ah for me, it's also a way to do, like to enjoy the process.
Speaker: And at the end, this memory, it's like ah the plan now is that I want to travel around the world so I can continue doing this, but also not by myself, just with like in a co-creation with others.
Speaker: So in that sense, I was like, really, it was a really experimental process and a really experimental result. And so, yeah, that's the, it was like really, as you said, one thing was like feeding the other. And then at the end it was like, okay, time to put together something, but it just like,
Speaker: I love the idea of the film being an artifact of your experience, right? It's like some sort of documentation or, um you know, like the the leftovers that are kind of like the visual representation of this thing that can't be visually represented.
Speaker: And I'm trying to like think of some connections to like conceptual artists who did similar work probably in the 60s or 70s and none are coming to mind. But um there was a line that I had copied and pasted for this conversation, which would which was from your description, which said, um an animated exploration where learning becomes living experience.
Speaker: And so i when I watched the ah film, ah because it's like so poetic, I was excited for this conversation to get like some more information about where like you were coming from and and and kind of the context around the film uh because um i mean because i'm because i was so interested because the film's so beautiful uh and so it's really it's really cool to hear the kind of like the way you talk about the film or non-film or whatever the thing is that you ended up showing right uh and um yeah i don't i i just uh
Speaker: I love that idea of it being an artifact. um I had a question, um and it was about the kind of like philosopher that you had um referenced. it Was it David Abram?
Speaker: Yeah. um And i was i was doing some, have you heard of this guy, Issa? um I haven't heard specifically from him of him, ah but I feel like, ah i mean, Andrea was also referencing that this is also kind of like a general indigenous thought, so I feel like it is very prevalent in like many different cultures.
Speaker: um So I'm familiar with with the idea, but I'm not familiar with this author specifically. Yeah, me either, or or animism as like kind of like a a belief system. I like am familiar with the idea of like believing in in the spirit of of material things, but I hadn't really like known that much about it.
Speaker: what he There was a quote where he says, mind is not a human property, it's a quality of the earth. And that one like really... ah like made me understand kind of like what the philosophy means, which is that like, and you and you referenced ego.
Speaker: And so, you know, this idea that like we own our minds or something, even though they like come from this place that we live in, it just like totally flips the script in terms of thinking about the relationship between humans and nature, whether whether there is even a separation there at all.
Speaker: And it seems like in your film, you're you're touching on a lot of those things. um And so I was wondering, kind of like um in terms of your connection to animism, because you had talked about um and when you were five years old, you believed that water ah could could hear you, right? Like that it could understand you.
Speaker: um And it was past tense ah in in the way that it translated. And so I didn't know if it was still past tense. So I'm wondering, what is your kind of like relationship to that now that you're you know older and and and you've made this film and you've had these experiences? um how How do you feel about kind of the material world and its relationship to to people and humans?
Speaker: yeah I believe that ah David Avram is a like really nice ecologist. e ologists and and But also like it in a sense, I was like a approaching to this cnc from a really like inner space because I believe that In Uruapan or Michoacán or Mexico, we believe in animes, but for us, it's not about a name. It's more like about how life exists by itself. Like I remember like my grandmother and aunts, uncles, like, you know, we have a lot of these
Speaker: Also, Purépechas, like the indigenous ah people here from Michoacán, they have a really strong connection. And they the it's not about like you're not separate from the storm, the thunder, from the corn. So for me, it was like just like a theoretical ah way to prove that something that I was experiencing since I'm a kid.
Speaker: And in that sense, i I, i was while I was reading, I was like, ah okay, yeah, yeah, this is like this. But also, i was like, as I said, when I went to Estonia, I was like discovering, like really, um like that is real, you know, that also that they have their own beliefs about the forest and about the these different places.
Speaker: I don't know, really folk stories. So for me, it's like a human a way to explain life. But also, like, in that sense, I i i mean, i something happened in Estonia. My best friend was a tree that was, like, outside a window, like the the not light the snow, that for the first time I, like, experienced it. And I was, like, so amazed as a kid.
Speaker: And it has, like, a like all these... I also call it that they were my teachers because I learned something from them then more than ah in a theoretical way, like more like in a human way, like, oh my God, I'm experiencing this minus 16 degrees and I'm like freezing and my mind is like really lazy.
Speaker: And if I don't see the sun, I get like sad and why. And so I think... animatura, it was just like a, now it's just like a really thought in the universe of things that I discovered because of, also because I let myself to discover and also it's like a It's like kind of own meditative process because it's like, okay, Andrea, shut up.
Speaker: Don't think about the frame. Don't think about animation or movement. It's just like, what is yeah what is happening here, right? And also there's like an animator, Jan Smankmeyer is a Czech animator who have this philosophy around animation also that is like a...
Speaker: ah It's more like a sensitive ah feeling, like a tactile feeling, animation. And for if you, I have the book here, so I can read it.
Speaker: And it's like, it's more about experience it and then ah pull it out, you know? And also that talking about animation, we believe that something like animation is about movement in order to give us all to make it alive.
Speaker: But what is funny is like, it's if not about just movement, it's about to feel the soul. That's what he expresses. So ah in this sense, for me, it was like something like a really, and it's not just me, it's like a lot of people feel that animation is like a shamanistic thing to do, like a magician, right? You need the steps, but you need to unique the technique,
Speaker: but ah it's more like a ah something, like an aura or something. So in that sense, I believe that having animation as a technique ah helped me to put it together, but like the other, ah like this,
Speaker: The other part was about this memory in my childhood and that I forget about it. But with this process, it was like, it is there, right? Why why shouldn't it be there anymore? like if It's and something that I think we need empathy for the others, like really need.
Speaker: And it's like, I need so much to learn still. I really need a lot. So it was like... It was like, oh, Andrea from like with five years have more, you know, was is smarter than me, like trying to be an adult in a way.
Speaker: yeah When you were, when you, oh, i'm sorry. Go ahead, Elisa. No, I was just going to say, because I i do, um I noted down like two of the things that you mentioned in one article that you recently wrote about Anima Natura, where you also mentioned Jan Svangsmeyer.
Speaker: um Svankmeyer, sorry. And wanted to read it so people have like the reference of what you're talking about maybe, ah which i only ah took note of two of the three that you put because these two were the ones that I felt like more touched about and like more in relation to what you're saying.
Speaker: And one one of them was about like the magical question, right? Like he says, animation isn't about making inanimate objects move. It is about bringing them to life. So that's kind of like one ah one of them, right? um And then the second one, um it talks about the experience of the eye versus the experience of the body, which I thought also that was like really beautiful in many ways. And it says, always trust the body because touch is an older sense than sight and its experience is more fundamental.
Speaker: Sorry, my reading was kind of weird, but should I read it again? Does it say touch touch is an older sense than sight? Yes. Always trust the body because touch is an older sense than sight and its experience is more fundamental.
Speaker: Is that like in evolution, like we had like before we could see, we could feel? I think it, yeah, like like maybe not so much like humans, but just like a general evolution, like the eyes and the sight kind of like comes after. And then at the beginning, it was just like all these bodies like moving like within each other. That's how I read it.
Speaker: um Because I feel like humans have always had eyes. So I feel like it has to go before. Sure. I just, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I think it's it's it's so it's so telling and I feel like it informs a lot of ah what we see and obviously you're explaining it to us now. So yeah, I thought it that was like really amazing.
Speaker: um when you're when you're out When you're out filming in in spaces, or I guess not filming, but when you're out being and in landscapes ah for this film or or in general when you're working on something like one of your projects, how like how long do you usually spend in a space?
Speaker: And then and ah do you watch the footage while you're there? Like, do you like after you kind of like do one of these scenes? Do you watch it in that place where you are? Do you save it for later?
Speaker: um or Or is there not a specific process there? i just I imagine watching it there could be such a wild experience um of seeing the the place that you're in animated in kind of like video format while you're still there or whatever.
Speaker: Yeah, well, I was doing this. That's a really nice question because yeah I couldn't plan a lot of things. And what I planned, it was always like a fail because it's like also it was funny because because of winter, again, a lot of darkness and I couldn't resist ah outside animating in the cult, in that cult.
Speaker: So it was that's why I started writing and and i had like and researching and I was like, okay, I can go out, but I will write what I feel and what I see.
Speaker: And for me, that was like a really... like a really nice discovery because and also the difference between these two mediums, right? Because in order to write, I just need to be there and just like, okay, observe and then write.
Speaker: And in order to animate, I have to prepare like tripod and camera and just plan and or So it was like, wow, this is a process, like like a mechanical process, like a really physical. I mean, for me, animation is a really physical process.
Speaker: and And I remember that in one of the shots, ah my I was like freezing that much that me and Yachuan, my friend, we had to run.
Speaker: like We took like one picture and then run. in the forest and then like another picture and then run but like really running. So you wouldn't so you wouldn't get too cold? you Yeah, because I stopped feeling my hands and my feet.
Speaker: so i went So it was like that that for me was like, okay, so this process is about as Norma McLaren, a Canadian animator who says that what is smart is most important is what happened between each frame than the frame, like the So for me, Animanatura was like that. So what what was happening between each frame was a really ah physical like struggle or like a really physical condition.
Speaker: So at the end, these, ah I don't know, 12 frames per second ah were like, a well, the result. But in between, I he was like... ah like know those different Also, I like the Aurora Boreales, Las Auroras Boreales.
Speaker: It was just like, oh my God, we have like, oh, Aurora Boreales, 2 a.m., we should go and we just run, you know, like, and was like, So when I was that, for me it was like a present from the universe, like because I was feeling really insecure about the film, because I was like doing such an experimental thing for the academy, right? Because for a get the master. so So when I was there, like under these auroras boreales, I was like, wow, that this is all about like you being a witness, but not you trying to control like all of it.
Speaker: It's more like about be to be a witness and then to pull it together. So in that sense, it's like an opposite process because you don't plan, you you document and then you put it together.
Speaker: So that's like the that was kind of the process. And now I could understand it better. But in the moment, I was really frustrated because it was like, It's all over the place. like But it's life, right? like ah It's nature. So everything was like... But I'm okay with that. I think I'm good with this chaotic...
Speaker: and i'm I'm not sure if I'm that good with the really planned and structured storyboard or something. I believe that that's why i i did this process. Because for me, it was organic and not like the other way.
Speaker: that's amazing um I was thinking this is a bit of a different subject, but I was thinking about that phrase that the ah film starts with. ah You say I've captured the nothingness, nothing like what is here.
Speaker: when the landscape returns, I will release the nothingness I have captured. And um i was really interested this is like very evocative, and it also serves like an entryway to your thinking, to the way of observing, right, of creating.
Speaker: um And to me, there's kind of a lot to unpack these few lines, but one thing that i that comes to mind is this idea of like capturing, right? And in some ways, it reminds me of like this 18th century like nature observers who capture things in nature and then draw them or like to learn.
Speaker: um or like collected them, et cetera. ah But I feel like something that is very different in your case is that you're bringing the idea of the release. You know, like there's like this capture, like there's a moment where you're like taking things in, but there's a return, right? Like there's a release. So um I'm wondering what you're thinking about those ideas, if if it's something that you thought about and if, and like how it relates to the overall concept of the film, like this idea of like the release, release.
Speaker: taking in and then releasing, right? if it was It's also part of the process because, I mean, at first it's like a mixed sentence and it's also like a popular belief that if you put a glass of water and use and if you lose something, if you miss like ah something, you ask something else to return it to you. So you would put a glass of water and you say, like I'm going to put this here and if you return it to me, I will release this that I got.
Speaker: like So I kind of twisted in like a in a sense like that ah will if you return the landscape, I will release this, right?
Speaker: and For me, it was more like this metaphorical way to say, like, this interchange between like something meaningful, but it's like, a I mean, for me, the landscape could be meaningful, but for others, no.
Speaker: And that's something. And also like to capture, because so there's like, when you are doing photography, this there's like this click, click, click, right?
Speaker: That sometimes it was like really crazy because you are like in the forest and everything is super... balance and I was feeling that ah when I got there with the camera and the tripod, I was like kind of a different feeling, but I asked permission, you know, to don't be so in but invasive and also like, um yes, to don't be that invasive.
Speaker: And so it was like a twisted, like a game of words. of capturing like with image like and because is you you get something so and at the end it was like what can I give to you but like yeah and also it was ah about this collecting that part it was like animation is also about collecting right sometimes like objects and things but As so I was like developing this, I was like, oh, oh I'm going to animate really big trees and really, like you know, at the first.
Speaker: But at the end, I was really feeling like that I was like hurting the landscape with with my aesthetic intentions. So I was like, no, I need to keep it really simple because one branch It's like the forest by itself, right?
Speaker: So I just keep like, the that's why it's like the really minimum. Because for me, I was feeling that if by initial plan to animate, like really, I was like,
Speaker: why you are going to do that, right? If you want to prove this empathic process, you are doing the opposite. So in that sense, that's why it's so like minimalistic, because I believe that through the minimal, you can still achieve something.
Speaker: And it's so it was like, a for me, it was a really big learning, like a Like, or understand that you don't need to damage something or like, you can just take a little piece and that will be like a... At the end, I was like, oh this branch can have a, like a whole story, you know, or this leaf can, like another story.
Speaker: And that was really beautiful to discover. And also like that, what we consider beautiful and no, or no, like in nature, like... go then you know like the big landscape, the big forest and green forest, or like the little and dry moss.
Speaker: I don't know. for It was like this way to like to keep it simple. ah Because at the end, the plan was to go around and not just Estonia, just like also Mexico and other places and just to take the minimal, like the minimal and create something with the minimal.
Speaker: So that's why I only carry things in my, in one backpack, like a tripod, a backpack and just like really, and that's the, like the, like the statement. Like the lesson basis. Yeah. Like the statement, like just the minimal.
Speaker: i think the And also I think that you kind of like described a little bit of tension between kind of like ah the thing that you're trying to kind of capture and not being too invasive. I think that tension is is good for the for the film right and for good for the work in in that conversation because it is like it's a negotiation.
Speaker: And i think that that is powerful um because otherwise there isn't really a conversation there to be had. You know what I mean? And so I didn't feel tension watching the film, but i hearing you talk about your approach, um I think that it's it's it's in there. It's like baked into the film in the way that it helps um convey the kind of poetry and and message that you've been talking about.
Speaker: Yeah, it was like really, but so was it was really like mixed between me being there as a student or as a human and me being there as a director.
Speaker: Right. So in that sense, it was like a kind of a like this fight, inner inner fight between this tension. But at the end, I think that it is honest and that's what I it's OK for me.
Speaker: Like now after one year, it's like, OK, it's OK. Yeah. Yeah. um I have ah i have ah like a video artist director question, which which is like about access to your films.
Speaker: um And I'm wondering if you have kind of like a working philosophy for yourself about posting films online, how people can access them. Do you share stuff on Instagram?
Speaker: ah Because i you know like a lot of these... um segments I feel like would be very much appreciated on a Instagram mobile level ah you know they're they're very much appreciated in this kind of like art film museum level but like I could see them being sent around so i'm I'm just like wondering kind of like what's your relationship with the internet and your films and who gets to and access them ah Well, yeah, I believe that now, this after like this year, it will be like ah free and open access.
Speaker: But also one important part about it is that it's not just like this film. It's more like about the the intention. It's also about workshops and to create together like films. who can We can host it like online.
Speaker: And that it's that's why ah it was more like a methodology to do to do it, like a these video arts with others. That's my dream. And just like host it together, like in an open web, I don't know, like YouTube or some like a web page or something that is like, ah you know, like it's like a bigger ah bigger picture of it.
Speaker: So not this year, but next year this Animanatura will be free, like open. And the intention is like this, grow and grow and grow like a loop also and as said like a bigger memory for the landscapes.
Speaker: And when I was back in Mexico, because of the scholarship, I did like three workshops, three workshops in Uruapan. And it was like a really nice experience. We did it in a national park named Barranca del Cupaticio.
Speaker: and And it was like... Each workshop was with 10 students, young, like and the result was really nice. i'm I'm about to post these results.
Speaker: and So the idea is not just to keep it for, like, I believe that this project is not to keep it secretly because the point is to... One is live the process together and the second is to show the other to others also, not just in Mexico, like in Estonia, like, you know, like to like co-creation kind of that belief.
Speaker: And so, yeah, I think for me, it's also like a new learning in in a way of like how to show the work. And I believe that that's new for me and that I'm really like happy to discover this new way to do it.
Speaker: Yeah, the video and film, it just like travels very easily. And so you get to have shows like the one we're having with works from all over the world and with people seeing it who might not normally see it if it was a more regional thing, if it was a photography exhibition, right? Because there's physical things that have to get shipped or or live in a place. and so things tend to be more regional if it is physical objects as opposed to film and video, which really can travel, which I think sounds like something that you would like this film to do and is doing. and and And I know you've screened at a bunch of festivals, which is awesome.
Speaker: Yeah, that's super nice. and But I still need, I feel that it needs to be like just there outside in the world. like But it will be, it will be. So just I'm not sure if I understood correctly, but so this this kind of like life that you're seeing the film and anima natura taking with this workshops that is like meant to create like more like like chapters or is it kind of like appendixes of the of like the piece or like how are you how are you planning for it to be ah growing and expanding?
Speaker: um is it Is it like making new ones also and then making more workshops and then sort of like ah creating new chapters in each of it kind of like branching out or I don't know, I'm just wondering.
Speaker: Yeah, I think it's also kind of like that. I'm still like trying to really like ah make the... like the ah specific points, but it's about chapters from really different territories.
Speaker: So like in this sense, this like animanatura is like the umbrella and the others is like the the things under the umbrella.
Speaker: And i I think, but let's see, because it's like, ah for me, it's also like a really different process and you know like It's a new thing. I know about other projects that it see exist like that.
Speaker: So I'm trying to learn also from how they work and how this project can be done. laa s lee So I think you will hear about it in this...
Speaker: Because it's like I'm just really learning and that's why I'm really happy because normally if you create a film, it will end in two years, kind of, like the festival running.
Speaker: And for me, I was like, this could this can't end in like two years because this should continue and continue until we have time, until we have life. so yeah It is also interesting because I feel like you were telling us about the process in itself and how it was hard, how are you were like a little bit confused. How is this going to come together?
Speaker: a lot of thinking, a lot of writing, like also like, you know, like taking photographs, shooting, et cetera. Like everything was like happening and in sort of like this, um I don't know, like specific relationship with the place and like thinking back to your own um hometown, right? in u upan And like what was happening with ah the forest burning, etc.
Speaker: um So i'm I'm wondering like if you were and i'm I don't know if this has an answer really, maybe it doesn't even have an answer, but I'm like thinking about like how How do you plan a next experience? Because I feel like what happened there was like very unique. So like I guess the question is, how do you create the space for that connection and for that new thing? Because i'm I'm sure you're not going to find the same thing that you found in Estonia, right? like Whatever new relationship you're going to create with a new space is going to be its own thing.
Speaker: But I feel like that also... um Obviously, it takes like time and like spending ah you know yeah time and in the space.
Speaker: um But I'm just wondering, like what would be, like what is your, i don't want to call it, like what did you learn? But what is kind of like the conclusion into saying, like okay, next time that I'm going to do this, like this is what I'm taking from the previous experiences and and i and I know that this could work.
Speaker: Or like might work. and also what What a question. ah sorry Yeah, I think I learned. ah I think that's why it's so important, this first film, because it's like when you if you don't.
Speaker: like if you don't have ah mistakes, you won't learn. I feel it like that. So for me, it was like, I was like a really learning process, everything. So I'm not really satisfied.
Speaker: So I think that this next time I'm satisfied, like with my human, ah how to say it, like ah my human experience, resources now, but not my skills in the place.
Speaker: So for me, it was really important to learn that I need to be physically really healthy or like ah mentally also like really like because I was kind of anxious there because of this ah process and how they, so I need to be like, that's crazy because the the the project you need to change because of the project. It's it it is also like in a physical way because it's really human.
Speaker: So what I will do better next time is like to be ah like a in a better physical and ah mental state. Because ah i mean because in in Estonia, it was because of cult and It was hard, but also I was thinking maybe if I was like, now that I'm prepared to this really ah ah coldness, so maybe next time it will be easier because I you already did these practices.
Speaker: And I think it's like a like, for me, that's why now i it's easier to get into the place as a like as a whole, but what is like now I'm wondering because I want to start with the Paricutin, the volcano in my hometown. So for me it was like, wow, now it's another character. It's a volcano, right? And the ashes So it's like I believe that I will always be in front of something new.
Speaker: But like the basis should be to be like in a good physical ah condition and also in a really quiet ah mind, like ah really like, okay, focus, you are going okay, like just try, like just just play, right? So that's why I like play and don't be like such afraid of making like mistakes. So because each time it will be different, even if it's nature, each time it's a different character or like a different context, like in a, not just in a natural way, but also about, you know,
Speaker: security, like, you know, like the, that's in Michoacan, it's a thing. And that changed completely the experience. Like, how I'm going to be safe doing while doing this.
Speaker: In Estonia, I was afraid of that. I was like, okay, just don't freeze. right You know, but here it's like, okay, just don't freeze. Who is going with you? You can go alone. So,
Speaker: and so so ah part that that's also part of the landscape. like in it right Right. And that's also, that that's why I'm like, now I'm like, I need to be like, that's another step.
Speaker: Like, so I believe that I'm i want i gonna um always going to be learning like new things, but the basis is like, hello allow yourself to play and also allow your body to be like healthy.
Speaker: So it means that it sounds simple, but for me it was a really thing to do. you know like ah So it's a for me it was more like a trustend and transcendental way.
Speaker: to create, then... Also, just like great advice for life in general, right? Allow yourself to play and allow yourself to be healthy. It's like yeah kind of all you need, right?
Speaker: Yeah, kind of. But yeah. So let's see. That's amazing. Yeah. Yeah. I have one more question. If we still have time. We got time. We got all the time. got all the time want.
Speaker: um So we kind of like went a little bit to the future, but there's like these two other films that you've directed directed. Sorry. Dejarse caer, crecer. Dejarse crecer el cuerpo.
Speaker: And yo contengo un espacio. and So I'm wondering, like, ah do you feel like those films in some way relate to Anima Natura? They were like some sort of like I don't want to say it prequel, but like how and if those films relate to this project, then maybe if you can tell us a little bit about those two projects.
Speaker: Yeah, I think it's Dejarse Crecer el Cuerpo. It's not related, like direct, they're related, but it is a documented documentary.
Speaker: And Yo Contengo un Espacio, it's the main reason that that why I went to Estonia and what I'm doing now, because it was it's about the garden from my childhood.
Speaker: And for me, when I discovered that, it was like, wow, what will happen if this is just in a tiny space, but what what will happen if you do it like, if you are able to go outside of Mexico and just like, you know.
Speaker: So I believe that Yo Contengo is un espacio that is made with just like not money or anything. It a makes everything for me. So...
Speaker: it's It's like they that's why I like recovered the fate in me also because ah we as a family were we we were having a really like hard time.
Speaker: So it's like, okay, so this is life and Why you don't go further? Why you don't try? So it was the reason that I wanted to go out of like Mexico.
Speaker: And so it's really important. And in that sense, it's as they said, like ah gardens are like also inner spaces, like, you know, like, these inner spaces. So it's like, for me, everything is really related to what you see outside is like what you see inside.
Speaker: And in that time, I was also feeling like quite, there's always a bit of darkness inside of me. So it's like part of it. But it's also what ah nature teach me is like there's be something beyond you. So it's like how to keep an eye in a bigger picture, not just like your inner garden, you're right, it's just, it's a bigger, and a lot of things are happening at the same time, that's what's something that amazes me, it's like this little snail, you know, going like,
Speaker: really slow or like something is on because everything is alive in that sense. And so it's like I want to force myself to, not force myself, but I want to give me the chance to put me in that possibility to observe beyond like what me or beyond this space. so but And also because I realized that I like really like animated documentary or documentary by itself.
Speaker: So I was also a bit afraid of doing like animated documentary because sometimes it's hard to... It's a complex process, like you ah what it is what is documentary and what is reality. so but ah Now I like it more than ever.
Speaker: I think it's interesting. I feel like you you talk about there's a little bit of darkness always, but I also see darkness as like darkness is like how the seed grows, right? Like that the seed needs to like sprout in the darkness. So there's like something important about those processes and like staying in those places too.
Speaker: Yeah, also Estonia, it was like this darkness, but it's also when you understand that you need to calm down and just then and then spring will be like, ah. That's why the colors in the film are so bright.
Speaker: Because when after all that the darkness and these gray colors everywhere, and you see like the first blue sky and it's like... Oh my God. Yeah.
Speaker: So that's why it's, but thank you so much for, it was really nice to chat with you. Yeah. yeah like Yeah. Thank you so much for, for taking the time. This was wonderful.
Speaker: Uh, any final thoughts, Alisa? I had, there's one more question that I, but yeah I always i mean this is this is we have one more question. You're just going to keep like pulling out new questions as I'm like, oh, is that it?
Speaker: I was, um, I was interested in this term that you mentioned also in your article, which I, I understand that you coined it um, embodied animism, embodied animism.
Speaker: Right. Can you tell us more about that concept? Yeah, it's it's more like, a I believe there is more like this ah allowance for you to to believe that there's more.
Speaker: And that it's like ah to feel not only with your brain, like, just like, oh, there's more. It's more like, what happened, like, to go, like, how does the plant feel? Or what will be...
Speaker: What would you will feel if the how like the plant, you know, or the branch or the... So so when I was like imagining, picturing that, I was feeling that I was like also, in a way, learning from like ah you know like other senses.
Speaker: But also it's like so also for me, it's like a way of carrying with you this belief that everything is alive and just to... you know like It's not just because I'm doing this or this research or this project. kima It's more because I already absorb it from as a belief, but not just like like in a mental way, but also like ah in a physical way.
Speaker: I don't know if I... It's kind of hard to explain. Maybe kind of... you carry it with you because you feel it in your body, not just in your mind as a concept. It's more like you believe that you you are also correlated with plants or water, you know.
Speaker: Also because I feel like ah if water is alive and I have ah like this also traumatic experience with water, and also for me it was like a way to tell my ah body, like, calm down, not just my mind. Like, you can be, you can swim and you can, and you'll be okay.
Speaker: So in that, because the water is a good spirit, you know? So for me, it was like this kind of teaching my mind to trust, but also my body to trust.
Speaker: And also it's funny because like, and like, uh, the like invisible things as wind, for example, that in Estonia was sometimes like super hard.
Speaker: And I was in my right, right in my back and I was like, you know, it it feels like a spirit. So I was like, oh, no, it's so it's to believe that it's like a character also in your life.
Speaker: around you, but it's like, okay, like calm down and want to go home safely. And so for me, that's kind of the, how I perceive embodied animism.
Speaker: That's so interesting. Yeah. I think there's some something like really important about, you know, like Like we have like brains and we think with the brains, but there's like a lot of ways to think with the body. And and it's a little bit of what you're talking about. Like how do you connect from like different um spaces ah with different entities that doesn't necessarily have like a specific body or a mind, but they're still there and they're still like interacting in all these different ways with us.
Speaker: So that's super cool. yeah Yeah, and I think that, like at least in the States, the there's a lot of emphasis on analyzing with your brain rather than like feeling things with your body and like using you know research strategies and analysis and instead of actually feeling things ah or or doing both of those things at the same time.
Speaker: um Which I think can be a challenge for people who ah don't know don't know how to do that. I mean, I'm not good at it, I don't think. Me neither. That's why I really like, I always live here. So that's why it's so hard to go down, like feel it.
Speaker: but yeah like takes It like takes practice, right? Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker: yeah um Well, wonderful. um Thanks so much for hanging out with us, Andrea. This was great. Thank you. thank you It's really nice. and the And the exhibition at MUCA campus is up until September.
Speaker: um so September 6th. So if you're around, um go check it out. um Yeah. the The museum is going to be closed ah from ah July 5th to the 29th. So just make sure you don't go in those states. But then after that, after July 29th, it's going to be open until September 6th. Yes.
Speaker: Yes. And on July 31st, there'll be a screening and panel that Andrea will be a part of. Yes. it Yes. Stay tuned. Nice. Thank you. Thank you so much.
Speaker: Thank you. Thank you both.
Speaker: Arranging Tangerines is recorded, edited, and produced by Lydian Stater, an evolving curatorial platform based in New York City dedicated to showcasing emerging artists with a focus on ephemeral, conceptual, and time-based works.
Speaker: You can learn more at lydianstater.co and lydianstaternyc on Instagram. Big thanks to Tall Juan, who graciously provides our intro music. His albums are available at tallwan.bandcamp.com.
Speaker: And thank you to you, listener, for spending your valuable time with us.
